(Krishna Loka in the spiritual sky)

Allen Ginsberg: Do you remember a man named Richard Alpert?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Allen Ginsberg: Do you remember of a man named Richard Alpert? He used to work with Timothy Leary.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Allen Ginsberg: In Harvard many years ago. And then he went to India and found a teacher, and is now a disciple of Hanumānji or a devotee of Hanumān. And he said that, we were talking about māyā and the present condition of America...

Prabhupāda: Have some fruits?

Allen Ginsberg: In a while. Well, we can talk as...

Prabhupāda: Accha.

Allen Ginsberg: Bite your food. I have that question I wanted to asked. Are you tired?

Prabhupāda: No, no. I can talk with you whole night. (laughter)

Allen Ginsberg: So he said that his teacher in India told him that LSD was a Christ of the Kali-yuga for Westerners.

Prabhupāda: Christ?

Allen Ginsberg: Of the Kali-yuga for Westerners in that, as the Kali-yuga got more intense, as attachment got thicker and thicker, that also salvation would have to be easier and easier, and that...

Prabhupāda: (aside:) (Bengali)

Allen Ginsberg: Namaste. (to Indian lady)

Prabhupāda: She is a Bengali lady recently come from London.

Allen Ginsberg: Ahh!

Prabhupāda: Lekha. (Bengali)

Indian Lady: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali)

Allen Ginsberg: So, as the Kali-yuga became more intense and as attachment became deeper and more confusing...

Prabhupāda: Attachment for?

Allen Ginsberg: ...that salvation would also have to become easier and easier in the Kali-yuga.

Prabhupāda: That is very nice statement that in the Kali-yuga salvation is very easier. That is the version of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also, but that process is this kīrtana, not LSD.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, it was... The reasoning there, was that for those who would only accept salvation in purely material form, in chemical form finally, and completely material form...

Prabhupāda: Hmm. So where is the salvation when there is...

Allen Ginsberg: ...that Kṛṣṇa had the humor to emerge as a pill.

Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that any of these material forms...

Allen Ginsberg: Yes?

Prabhupāda: ...then where it is salvation? It is illusion.

Allen Ginsberg: Well the subjective effect is to cut...

Prabhupāda: No.

Allen Ginsberg: ...attachment during the...

Prabhupāda: Well, if you have got attachments for something material, then where is the cut-off attachment? LSD is a material chemical.

Allen Ginsberg: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So if you have to take shelter of LSD then you take, I mean to say, help from the matters, so that is... How you can... How you are free from matter?

Allen Ginsberg: Well, the subjective experience is, while in the state of intoxication of LSD, also realizing that LSD is a material pill, and that it does not really matter.

Prabhupāda: So that is risky. That is risky.

Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. Now so, if LSD is a material attachment, which it is I think, then is not the sound, śabda, also a material attachment?

Prabhupāda: No, śabda is spiritual. Originally just like in Bible there is, "Let there be creation." This sound, this spiritual sound. Creation. Creation was not there. The sound produced the creation. Therefore, sound is originally spiritual and through the sound; sound—from sound, sky develops; from sky, air develop; from air, fire develop; fire, water develop; from water, land develop.

Allen Ginsberg: Sound is the first element of creation?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Allen Ginsberg: What was the first sound, traditionally?

Prabhupāda: Vedic states, Oṁ. So at least we can understand from your Bible, that God said, "Let there be creation." So this is sound, and there is creation. God and His sound is non-different, absolute. I say, "Mr. Ginsberg," this sound and I, a little difference, but God is non-different from His energy, nitya... How it is called? Śakti śaktimator abhedhaḥ. Śakti, energy and śakti-mat, the energetic. They are non-different. Just like fire and heat, they are non-different, but heat is not fire. You can not differentiate heat from fire, or fire from heat. But fire is not heat.

Allen Ginsberg: Well the sounds, the sound kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: Yes, is non-different from Kṛṣṇa.

Allen Ginsberg: ...is not different from Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore, this sound kṛṣṇa...

Allen Ginsberg: Under all circumstances?

Prabhupāda: Yes, all, all circumstances, but it is the question of my appreciation, or my realization. That will depend on my purity. Otherwise this Kṛṣṇa sound and Kṛṣṇa, non-different. Therefore if we vibrate sound Kṛṣṇa, then I am immediately in contact with Kṛṣṇa, and if Kṛṣṇa is whole spirit, then immediately I become spiritualized. Just like if you touch electricity, immediately you're electrified. And the more you become electrified, more you become Kṛṣṇized. Kṛṣṇized. So when you are fully Kṛṣṇized, then you are in the Kṛṣṇa platform. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (Bg. 4.9), then fully Kṛṣṇized, no more comes back to this material existence. He remains with Kṛṣṇa.

(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, Columbus, Ohio, May 11, 1969)
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