(Click to enlarge photo of Srila Prabhupada)
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the original status of the living entity. Just like a son is conscious always that, "I am the son of such-and-such person." This consciousness is natural. So living entities, when they come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness... because we are all parts and parcels of Kṛṣṇa. It cannot be broken. A person may go mad, but when he's cured, he immediately understands that, "I belong to such-and-such family, such-and-such gentleman's son." That is natural. Similarly, in the contact of this material nature, the spiritual spark, living entity, he's in madness. You are a psychiatrist. You know very well. Every man is more or less a madman.
Dr. Hauser: Or he has the germ within himself.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. We say in a Bengali poetry:
piśācī pāile yena mati-cchanna haya
māyā-grasta jīvera se dāsa udāya
(Prema Vivarta 1)
Anyone who is infected with this material energy, he is just like a man ghostly haunted. You have any experience of ghostly haunted men? A ghost captures him?
Dr. Hauser: Ghostly haunted?
Dr. Hauser: Oh, yes. But that's very often a symptom of a, of a psychosis, that they feel that they are persecuted by, by foreign powers or by...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Foreign powers, yes. So this is called ghostly haunted. So our material conception of life, this is also ghostly haunted, madness. "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Englishman," "I am German," these are all conception of ghostly haunted. Because spirit soul is pure. In the Vedic language it is said, asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. The spirit soul has no connection with such designations. Just like in dreaming we see so many things. But it has nothing to do with me. So this is night dream. At night, we forget all these things about the day dream: "I am this," "I am that," "I am this family member," "I am his father," "I am his husband," and so on, so on.
At night, when we dream, are in a different situation, and we forget everything. And again, in daytime, we forget everything of the night dream. We come another dream. So this is also dream. That is also dream. I am simply observing. In daytime I am seeing some dream, gross dream, and at nighttime I'm seeing some subtle dream. But seer, I am. Under different condition, I am seeing different things. I think you treat this madness. He's sees things in different way, in different positions.
Dr. Hauser: Hmm. Yes.
Prabhupāda: So everyone is mad. Anyone who is in material contact, he is mad. So we are trying to take him out of this dreaming condition. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Hauser: But does he stop dreaming? I mean, substantially, does he stop, stop... does one stop dreaming?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Stop means... because dreaming means that is not my actual occupation. Dreaming means that. I am separate from the dreaming condition. So if one stops this dreaming condition, then he's cured.
Dr. Hauser: But the dreaming of the night also has another function, according to my...
Prabhupāda: No. Dreaming at night, dreaming at day. The same thing. The pattern is different. Pattern is different. If you think that you are Englishman, you are Swedish, or if you are Hindu, you are Muslim, that is also dreaming. You are none of this, as much as you are none of those dreaming things at night. But due to our madness, sometimes we take, "This is fact," sometimes we take, "That is fact." But none of them are facts. Under different condition, we accept them as facts. But none of them are facts. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness means, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170): when one becomes freed from all designations. Upādhi.
Upādhi means designation. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam. Completely free from all designation. Just like in dream I think I have become now king. I am the proprietor of a factory. But none of them. It is only dream. Similarly, in day dream I am thinking I am the father of this family, I am the mother of this family, I am this, I am that. That is all dreaming. So one has to become free from this dreaming condition. That is called sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam, liberated from all kinds of false designation. Designation. Designation means false...
Dr. Hauser: But some of these false, false designations also are the machinery of a society.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also false.
Dr. Hauser: Although they're false, but they, they sort of drive the society on.
Devotee: Although, although these designations are false, they are driving on a whole society.
Devotee: The whole society's driving on so many...
Prabhupāda: Therefore we call it is illusion, māyā. Just like I showed you.
Devotee: Yes, the reflection.
Prabhupāda: Reflection. I, in morning walk, the sun was reflected in a glass, exactly it is brilliant as sun. So I showed him: "This is called māyā, illusion. There is no sun, but it appears like sun. Exactly. And it is illuminating also." Reflection of the moon. So one who is less intelligent, he'll see: "Oh, here is a sun, another sun." So he's a madman. One who sees the sun reflection in the glass as sun, he's illusioned. He's mad. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is also psychiatrics movement.
Dr. Hauser: Is that a...?
Devotee (2): Psychiatric movement.
Dr. Hauser: Oh, yes, yes. In a way... I... yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. We are taking away a person from the illusionary stage to the real stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Hauser: But it also seems to me that you have, by gaining this consciousness, you can skip a lot of hard work that it takes in ordinary analysis or in a group therapy, for example...
Prabhupāda: No hard work.
Dr. Hauser: You have to work a lot with yourself to gain...
Dr. Hauser: ...insight.
Prabhupāda: It is very easy, very easy. Just like we recommend this chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Anyone can chant. Even child can chant.
Devotee: His point is that we... our processes skips all this work that they do in an ordinary psychiatric ward or...
Dr. Hauser: No. Yes. Or in specific processes which are directed towards insight, the same kind of insight that I imagine you are striving for.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We ask them to refrain from four prohibitive principles: no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating, no intoxication. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Refrain from these prohibitions, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And he becomes sane, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Very easy.
Dr. Hauser: Yeah, it sounds easy. I hope it works.
Prabhupāda: You see all the examples. Well, the same... I have not given them any bribe or anything...
Dr. Hauser: No, no, no. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: ...that they'll talk in my favor. But talk with them.
Dr. Hauser: Yes, I've talked to them, and they... that's why I'm here, because I'm not, I'm...
Prabhupāda: But the process is very simple.
Dr. Hauser: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And we don't charge anything. You charge, of course, some...
Dr. Hauser: Oh, yes. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: (laughs) But we don't charge anything. Free. I began this treatment in New York, and it is coming effective.
Devotee: All over the world.
Prabhupāda: So I think you should adopt this means. A simple method. Don't charge anything. Simply ask him to do this, he'll be cured.
Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Nirmalam means completely cured. Mala means dirty things, and nirmala means just opposite—no dirty things. Nirmalam. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate. When the senses are freed from all dirty things, then it can be engaged in the service of the Lord. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Hauser: One... one very normal problem that I meet very often in patients is the security to feel that one can believe in something, a security of... always there i... very often there is an ambivalence: "Should I believe? Should I not believe? I have a, a..." Swaying to and fro.
Prabhupāda: No. Believe... there is no question of believe. Suppose you are hungry. I give you some food. I say: "You are hungry. Take this food." So when you take this food, you'll believe that, "Yes, my hunger is now satisfied. I'm getting strength." That is belief. So if you are hungry, and if I give you some food, if you don't eat, then how you can believe that your hunger is now satisfied? You must eat. So we say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So why not chant? Where is the loss? If there is any gain, let me take it. That is belief. If I say: "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," so you have got tongue, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you chant, you'll believe me, because the result will be there. There is no difficulty.
But if you say: "No, I shall not chant," then, then you suffer. What can be done? Anyone can chant. The child chants. If we say: "I don't believe in it. I cannot chant it," so many words. And Hare Kṛṣṇa, two words. (laughter) You take so much trouble. "I cannot chant. I don't believe in it." And Hare Kṛṣṇa, two words. So it is whose fault? I say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," if you say: "Hare Kṛṣṇa," immediately, the belief begins. And if you say: "No, no, I cannot chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. I don't believe in it," what can be done? That, that will be taken as misfortune. He's being requested to chant two words. Instead of two words, he'll repeat twenty words. But due to his misfortune, he'll not chant these two words. That is a misfortune.
Dr. Hauser: Yes. But isn't there something else beyond just the chanting? I mean is it...?
Prabhupāda: That is the beginning. Then there are many things. Ocean. Ānandāmbudhi. Ānandāmbudhi means ocean of blissfulness. So come to the shore, touch the water, first of all, Pacific Ocean. Then gradually you understand. If you remain aloof, "No, I shall not touch," then how you can understand what is Pacific Ocean?
Dr. Hauser: Yes, I can see that.
Prabhupāda: Ambudhi. Ambudhi means ocean.
Dr. Hauser: Means...?
Devotee (3): Ocean.
Dr. Hauser: Ocean.
Prabhupāda: Ānandāmbudhi. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam.
...paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa...
sarvātma-snapanaṁ paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam
(CC Antya 20.12)
If you chant, then, behind the chanting there are so many things. First thing is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, cleansing the heart. All disease are due to unclean heart. Disease means uncleanness. Is it not?
Dr. Hauser: Hmm.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So our material disease means unclean heart. So we have to cleanse the heart. And this is the process: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam.
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation with Dr. Christian Hauser, Psychiatrist, September 10, 1973, Stockholm)