Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...they will say that in early history people used to live in the caves and they used to wear skins.
Prabhupāda: That is your rascal's conception. They used to live in palaces. (laughs) You are rascal; you do not know the history.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they are saying that they used to live... the history, because they don't have the complete information.
Prabhupāda: No, you are rascal, you have rascal's history. We are not rascal; we have got another history. Why shall I accept your history? You are rascal. You be satisfied with the history that your great-grandfather and his father used to live in the cave. But we don't accept.
Our forefather used to live in palace. Sixteen thousand palaces, Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) So you rascal, you live with your own history. Why you force your rascaldom history upon us? We are not going to accept. We get history from five thousand years ago. You have no history beyond three thousand years. But we give the shortest history five thousand years ago, Kṛṣṇa.
And how much intelligent from historical point of view Kṛṣṇa was. We can understand from His instruction, Bhagavad-gītā. It is not that because we are Kṛṣṇa-ites we are canvassing. The whole world is reading Bhagavad-gītā. Why, unless there is intelligence?
All scholars, all religionists, all philosophers, they are giving attention to Bhagavad-gītā. So how you can say Kṛṣṇa was living in the cave? Your forefather might be living in a cave, but our forefather did not live in a cave, but palaces. Your forefather is a monkey, according to Darwin.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So people completely lack the real knowledge.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why they give all these books. When we started school, we are taught with these... or we are supplied with this information right from the beginning—the history of mankind and then how this started. So they give all this information.
Prabhupāda: Stone Age. What is that, Stone Age? And before that?
Jayatīrtha: Before that they had dinosaurs.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Jayatīrtha: Even from a commonsense point of view, it's easy to understand that there's been civilization longer than five thousand years... (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Our proposition is the first creature of this universe is Lord Brahmā, who has created the universe. First creature of this universe, the most intelligent person. How we can accept the nonsense that this has developed from stone? Dāsa cakre bhagavān bhuta. Do you know this story?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.
Prabhupāda: Dāsa cakre bhagavān bhuta. So there was a circle of friends. So all the friends conspired to make another friend bewildered. So they conspired that, "As soon as you meet that gentleman you cry, 'Oh, here is a ghost! Here is a ghost! Here is a ghost!' " So all the friends, they come, one went, "Oh! You are dead, you are ghost, you are ghost!" So after ten times like that, he thought, "Have I become a ghost?"
Then he became bewildered, "Whether really I have become ghost, I have died?" He became puzzled. This is like that: "There was no human being, there was no human being," and all the rascals are now thinking whether this is right. Dāsa cakre bhagavān bhuta. If you make conspiracy, even the sane man will think himself that, "I have become ghost."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The influence of the...
Prabhupāda: Yes, propaganda. That is the cause of India's cultural falldown. These Britishers simply made propaganda that, "Whatever you have got in India, this is all allegory, fiction. These śāstras are nothing. But now you are learning from us England's work in India. That is your real... you are becoming civilized now.
Otherwise, you are in the utopia, and all these śāstras, throw it out." Because that was Lord Macaulay's policy. Lord Macaulay was sent to report how Indians can be governed nicely. So he reported that if you keep the Indians as Indians, you will never be able to govern them, because they are superior. You make propaganda that they are inferior, and they will imitate you, and then you can... that they did.
Jayatīrtha: The Indians would never be able to compete on the Britishers' platform.
Prabhupāda: No. It was under British rule, from the childhood they are subjected to the propaganda. We read one book, small book, by M. Ghose. The subject matter was "England's work in India." That was a compulsory reading book in the schools. And in that book, it was simply stated that, "We are uncivilized and since the Britishers have come, we are becoming." This is the subject matter of that book, "England's work in India." So everything Indian... the Jawaharlal is the typical example—"Everything Indian is bad." That was his philosophy.
Gandhi was trying to get the Indians back to village. His philosophy was that these capitalists, they are exploiting these poor men, so all these poor men, they should go back to village and be satisfied with the village economy, not to come out. Actually that's a very nice program.
But as soon as Gandhi died, or he was killed, the whole program was changed—industrialization, and attract the poor man, and let them live in wretched condition of city life. Gandhi's policy was to make them happy by agriculture in the village, produce their own cloth, not in the mill but in charkha.
Jayatīrtha: Spinning wheel.
Prabhupāda: Spinning wheel, they were spinning thread. Simple life and moralist. No drinking of tea, no smoking, and raghupati rāghava rāja rāma. This was his program. Hindu-Muslim unity. But all his programs failed. He died very dissatisfied.
Jayatīrtha: Why did they fail?
Jayatīrtha: Why was it the programs failed?
Prabhupāda: Because his disciples, they had a different program. They wanted politics like Western countries. They did not want... just like all the politician, they do not want anything good for the people. They simply want to make some money for their expenses. That's all. This is the whole policy of the modern diplomats and politicians. They do not know; you go to hell. Other way, in your country you see so many young men are frustrated.
So what government is doing actually? They are not serious. They have made this policy that catch them and send them, keep the Vietnam going on and kill them; all these useless boys should be killed. That is their policy. That is the Western policy, if you don't like anyone, shoot. So if your fathers and grandfathers, they could not make you right, then send them to Vietnam to be killed. This is going on. Suicidal policy. If when a good man becomes too much frustrated, he commits suicide. That is also very current in your country. But the same suicidal policy, these boys, hippies, they could not reform them—kill them. That's all.
Jayatīrtha: If they don't commit suicide, then they begin taking drugs.
Prabhupāda: That is also another suicide.
Jayatīrtha: When I was in Chicago, the one section where the temple is close by, more than sixty percent of the people were heroin addicts in this one section. They were so much degraded. (indistinct conversation) I was reading in the newspaper that the astronauts they are going to the moon, they wanted to take wine with them, so that when they got to the moon they could celebrate their victory. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: There is a story, (Hindi). One man said to his friend, "Oh, you are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my father is also drinking." "Oh, he will also go to hell." "My mother is drinking." "Oh, she will also go to hell." "My brother is drinking." "Oh, he will also go to hell." In this way, the last fellow was, "Oh, everyone is going to hell, then hell is heaven. Why do you say hell? We shall live together and drink. Why do you call hell? This is heaven." (laughter)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why association and company is so important.
Prabhupāda: So ignorance... "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." So drinking is heaven. Even they go to moon planet, there must be wine. Otherwise, how it is heaven? That is called punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed. If your wine is heaven, then why do you take so much trouble? Why don't you drink here? (laughter) Such rascals they are. Why you spend so much money? No, the heaven will be taken in bottle.
Jayatīrtha: If they were actually going to the moon planet, then they could enjoy the soma juice there... (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: These rascals are... I'm doubtful whether they are going to moon planet or some hell planet. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Our only formula is anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no good qualities—we reject him, whatever he may be. He is rejected from the list of good men immediately. He may be president or he may be this or that, it doesn't matter. Because he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a third-class man, that's all. This is our certification. (break)
These skyscraper buildings are no better than caves. They live here, and here is bathroom, here is kitchen, here is bedding room, three inches. (laughter) Is that advanced civilization? Advanced civilization means every man must have sufficient space to move.
(aside) Good morning.
Why do you create this path? People will recreate, they will feel repressed. So space is required for refreshment. So what is this civilization? Three-inches room. (break)
Jayatīrtha: (indistinct) ...as man progresses, the mark of his progression is his ability to use tools to a greater extent. Like there was the Stone Age. In the Stone Age, they used stones for tools. Then there was the Bronze Age, so they made weapons out of bronze—knives and so on. Then they invented the wheel.
Prabhupāda: Iron age.
Jayatīrtha: So as their science progressed, then they progressed, progressed their lives, and were able to utilize nature.
Prabhupāda: So what is that progress? The caves are still there, somebody is living here. Then where is the progress? As the caves are still there and somebody is living there, and skyscrapers, they are also, similarly, when you say the cave there, there were palaces you could not see them.
Both things are existing, but you studied only one side. Here is your history. See. Kṛṣṇa had sixteen thousand palaces, and there was no need of light. Jewels, all jewels. Everything is existing side by side.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So due to a lack of knowledge, they cannot see the real side.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, they are seeing only the caves. Just like they are going to the moon. They are going to the desert of the moon and they are concluding the moon is a desert. That's all. The other side is prohibited.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they cannot go.
Prabhupāda: They cannot go, because according to Vedic description, moon is a planet for demigods. So they have got better brain. So they saw that, "These rascals are coming here. All right, let them go to desert side." They have got their machine also.
If they have got better brain, they can divert you. Why not think in that way? Their theory is that all other planets there is no life; only this planet is favored by God, there is life. We say even in the sun planet there is life. (break) (end)
(Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, Los Angeles, September 28, 1972)